This discussion will be open from  8am - 11pm EST on October 28th; guidelines for the discussion board can be found here. If you experience any technical difficulties, please see our  Help/FAQs page or email  info@governancevillage.org.

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Most people have been propagandized by 'alternatives' to nuclear power; the only real solution for an advanced civilization. Fourth Generation nuclear options, the safest and most efficient means of reaching high flux density energy is just around the corner.  An immense field of solar or wind power, can only supply a tiny fraction by comparison.

Al Gore is an IDIOT!! Wake up people! We should be putting all our intellectual energy into perfecting fission and fusion energy options, as quickly as possible.

Just look at the success India has achieved by irigating with nuclear driven desalination!

Visit http://www.larouchepac.com for more info!

Nuclear power certainly has many features that deliver welcome alternatives. Nonetheless it is not without its own set of challenges. While it does not contribute to GHG emissions it does produce waste that is highly toxic and needs to be dealt with accordingly. Morevover, it is a form of energy that can be transformed into weapons -- never an easy issue, but particularly difficult for a region that has had its share of tensions between neighbours.

Another question that comes to my mind is the safety of using nuclear generation in countries succeptible to hurricanes and floods -- such as Central America and the Caribbean. Ah... and before I forget, the nuclear option is not inexpensive.

All this to say, while it might be an alternative that makes sense to India, it doesn't necessarily fit the bill in the Americas.

Check Louise Frechette and Trevor Findlay's nuclear governance project at www.cigionline.org

Following on Annette's comment, because of the unique conditions of the region  (geography, resource endowment etc) it makes sense to think about sources of energy that maximize these conditions and don't affect in a negative way the already existing vulnerbailities in countries such as SIDS. In this sense, it is important to consider views of key stakeholders and of those that would be affected by a given path regarding energy.  This will provide for a broader spectrum of opportunities regarding both access to energy and livelihoods. The Inter-American Strategy on Public Participation in Sustainable Development Decision Making ( http://www.oas.org/dsd/PDF_files/ispenglish.pdf)  provides a valuable set of principles that become relevant in light of the need to make decisions regarding alternative sources of energy.  

It seems that Annette and Claudia make good points on pursuing sustainable and suitable energy policy in the Americas – but with the environmental and decision-making factors you describe, what ARE some better ways of producing energy in the hemisphere? The nuclear option states above, if proven safe, seems attractive.

Given Mexico's current oil problems (see  http://www.coha.org/mexico-an-oil-nation-in-crisis/  for a good overview) , it would appear that windpower is an attractive and plausible future source of alternative energy for the country.  After building windfarms starting with La Venta I in 1994, and La Venta II in 2005, now we see the building of La Venta III, which should be usable by November 2010.

I think that this direction is particularly beneficial for Mexico, and could serve as an example for the rest of the region. La Venta III will have an installed capacity of 100 megawatts, which would forseeably cut CO2 emissions by 150,000 metric tons/yr.

There is no "silver bullet" solution to the energy challenges of the Americas, nor the rest of the world for that matter.  We do know for sure that offering multiple energy alternatives always results in more sustainability.  For the forseeble future this will include fossil fuels, but increasingly must look to other options.  Nuclear power is an increasingly safe option for power generation, but still has problems, particularly with regard to waste handling/disposal and fuel shipping/processing/security.  The LAC region is one of the most "blessed" in terms of renewable natural resources.  It is essential the commercial renewable energy alternatives, especially geothermal, wind and hydro get used in much greater percentages in the short and medium term.  Further, as a largely ubanized hemisphere with significant infrastructure we must focus on energy efficiency. 

I agree that a clear blueprinted strategy will be beneficial in delivering energy development to the Americas. It is clear to me that the proposal to sustain progress through a shared commitment of resources and technological expertise could go far towards delivering the objectives. We do have a bad habit of allowing too much history weigh in on the strategy, history more often creates circular arguments and delay which often includes increases in bureaucracy focusing on special interests. What is the economic footprint that is best suited for a given a regions natural sustainable capital? Once you know, it becomes much easier to eliminate that which does not fit without creating energy import reliance.

If it is to be assumed that energy translates to prosperity, then the road that uses the least amount of energy to get from A to B would seem to be the most logical choice.

If there is to be benefits from the continued short term consumption of fossil fuels then let no region void of development directly bear the unnecessary burden of transition costs to achieve an economy based around green energy. It is in the developed world's best interests to have resource productivity development accelerated. The adoption of the leading edge technologies where no infrastructure exists will translate into efficiency measurements that benefit both sides of the throughput equation.

Given the pressures that are being placed upon living systems, it is critical for governments and business to look at their own industrial metabolism and begin to change course. Early adopters and forward looking competitors will soon stake out the high ground of how a corporation or government can profitably deliver what people will need yet with radical reductions in throughput. The developing parts of the world void of large aging infrastructure should step over towards the leading edge of what the 21 ^st century has to offer in terms of maximizing resource productivity. From communications to transportation from healthcare to shelter and everything in between, leading edge technologies that take into account maximum resource productivity will lower costs while achieving greater benefits to the adopting society.

I wanted to go back to a point Mark (Lambrides) made on energy efficiency. After analising some of the data from the region, it is clear that there is much room for improvement, and with that, significant savings. I would be sense to start with the low hanging fruit, right?

Annette, energy efficiency, in my view is really the low hanging fruit.  You may have heard the adage, "a kilowatt of electricity saved is cheaper than a kilowatt of electricity generated."  This almost aways true, and is particularly salient for Latin America where we have quite developed industry and commercial buildings but a relatively weak regulatory environment.  That has resulted in many factories and buildings built with antiquated technologies and/or little attention to energy demand. 

I agree with most of the sentiments regarding nuclear - while it is an increasingly safe option, a life cycle assessment proves an environmentally unsustainable choice (would you want to live next to a nuclear tailing pond?) and infrastructure costs remain astronomical.  I think we are on to something with energy efficiency.  Much of the discussion on sustainable energy sources has focused on ideas like a smart power grid or improved battery power.  Are these potential options for the Americas?  What kind of investment would be necessary?

Sorry for the last sentence in my previous post (Glad you figured it out!!!) I will try reading three times instead of twice before I push the Post Comment button.

I couldn't agree more. Wouldn't it make sense to concentrate all efforts on efficiency instead of the current focus, funds and efforts being dedicated to energy integration?

There is huge potential on the efficiency side, once you start seeing what could be possible........It should proof to be the most logical choice. Any discussion of funds looked at through leading edge efficiency model glasses should be a prerequisite.

Energy efficiency often requires capital investment and intellectual infrastructure.  From a policy perspective, what is being done to create incentive to pursue this paradigm?  Is the responsibility that of the public or private sector?  It seems only logical that investing in new energy efficient technologies will create energy security as well as jobs.  Does anyone know of any successful initiatives at play right now?

All I can tell you is that I see some projects at the IDB, some at the World Bank, and I am sure our colleagues at the OAS can tell us about what they are involved in. I imagine that some of the funding that will be given by the US department of energy for the Low Carbon Communities (their contribution to the Sustainable Energy Partnership for the Americas initiative) will be on energy efficiency. However, I can't say there is a real vision and one single initiative that has inspired the region.

Shantel, can you tell us about what is happening in Mexico City in the electricity sector?

At the OAS we have been working on a lot of energy policy development in the Caribbean lately.  This is a region that has great energy challenges, with virtually all of its electricity sourced by imported oil and with critical environmental challenges/threats.  We are helping a number (OECS countries plus Bahamas) prepare National Energy Policies.  These policies will lay out a roadmap for their transformation to more sustainable energy use.  In these countries the topic of energy efficiency is pretty straight forward.  Not that it would not include smart grids and advanced batteries in the future, but for now it is really focused on the low hanging fruit.  Such options include:  switching lighting to compact fluorescents or LEDs, investing in transmission/distribution line upgrades, building design efficiency (using natural lighting, natural breezes, etc.), use of solar hot water heaters, etc.  Efficiency improvements can be "motivated" by establishing regulations, by setting standards and labeling, and by fiscal incentives (note solar H20 program in Barbados).

A very interesting conversation so far. While I'm not that aware of specifics, I wanted to generally sk the panelists and participants in here what they think links together the Americans in terms of energy and the environment. Obviously energy use and environmental protection effects everyone in the entire world, but why this forum focused on the Americas in particular? To me, it seems like many of the issues are regionalized, but don't seem truly hemispheric in nature. With the great differences in development and consumption, what ties it all together?

Mark - it's sounds like you are having some success with energy regulations and grass-roots initiatives.  In your talk you also mentioned that ocean thermal and geo thermal technologies are both options for member states pursuing sustainable energy sources. Both of these technologies are relatively new and costly.  How are they being adapted by local communities?  What kind of capacity building is necessary to make these projects a reality and what role is the OAS playing?

Annette-I haven't done research specifically regarding Mexico City's electricity sector, but I do know that President Calderón has said that Mexico as a country aims to have renewable energy represent a quarter of its total energy by 2012. This would be  marked improvement, and would most definetly have to involve Mexico City if it were to be achieved.

Wendi,

What ties it all together for me is the knowing that the issue is global, and the efforts made to improve situations should take into account knowledge on energy efficiencies from the global network on capabilities. From emerging Hydrogen fusion https://lasers.llnl.gov to Hydrogen fuel cell technologies, Natural and artificial geothermal, solar and wind, the efficiencies are out there they just have to move to the front of the line especially in under developed regions.

No longer is the world dotted with isolated islands of humanity. How we develop, from childhood to adulthood, is linked to our relations with our families and global societies. Equally, the full range of our human capital - from the state of our health to the level of our learning - affects, and is affected by, our relations to wider society. The energy used from point A to point B in a citizen's lifetime has huge potential for reduction while increasing value. The resources available just need to be unleashed free of special interests.

While the needs and resources for energy in the region may differ at the country and sub-regional level, it is important to highlight that most of the countries have gaps regarding incentives to alternative sources of energy and in many cases  also have inapproproate subsidies. Hence at teh policy and regulatory level, the key issues are shared at the hemispheric level.   In this regard efforts to drive actions on the ground at the national level should continue to be pursued, including through the National Energy Policies supported by the OAS in the Caribbean or  a framework that combines market based instruments with other approaches.  In addition to efforts at the policy level, the OAS  works at the technical level in facilitating access to sustaibnable energy technologies. A key example of this are the solar telecenters in Guatemala (Mark can talk about this initiative further) which also empower local communities (See page 2 of  http://www.oas.org/dsd/Energy/Documents/Second_Energy_Newsletter_e.pdf. )

Elaisha, I would argue that geothermal is not new, and not necessarily costly, while ocean thermal is.  Regarding geothermal, this is a techology that has been in use (in Italy for example) for over 100 years.  The thing is it is very site specific and there are only limited places where it can be exploited.  Notably along the Pacific coast mountains of the Americas (from Alaska to Chile) and in the Caribbean.  In the right conditions geothermal can be generated at 4-7 cents per kWh.  In the Caribbean, where we are providing support to governments/developers in St. Kitts and Nevis, St. Lucia, and Dominica, the costs will be higher (probably in the 10-15 cents per kWh range) given the scale and location of operations, but these prices are still lower than those for the conventional diesel generators currently in use.

Thumbs up to the discussion so far!! Shantel, I must say, with regards to Mexico they have been moving positively towards the alternative sources, with an eolic park in Oaxaca and more than 2 functioning geothermal plants located in other states, it is indeed pleasing to observe the initiatives that the Calderon Gov't has been taking. With regards to SIDS, I am a bit more concerned with our transformation towards alternative energy, not only has progression been slow, but I think one of the key factors is that we (SIDS) lack the capacity and vision among  us, hence efforts of the OAS and other multilateral agencies need to be applauded. I think my home country Grenada for example has the potential to produce Biogas as an alternative source, after observing the percentage of organic waste recieved at the landfield per year, % of land ocuppied for animal and crop farming and the rest left to be harnessed, I see it as a good intiative that will benefit the country on both a short and long term basis. What do you think Mark?

Claudia,

You mentioned above that many countries of the Americas have inappropriate energy subsidies. Could you explain further  what you meant by that point? Did you mean that the emerging alternative energies are being subsidized inappropriately? How can these subsidies be addressed in a hemispheric context?

Annlyn...Grenada, what a great country.  In fact my colleague is there right now working with you government on some of the details of what we are supporting in terms of a National Energy Policy.  We have an active project through the Minister (Burke) and the Energy Section to support this effort.  Regarding alternatives, I am optimistic regarding waste-to-energy...not sure if we are talking biogas or some other approach but I think that waste-to-energy is a great solution to many problems, not just energy.  Additionally, Grenada likely has exciting potential in the area of geothermal and wind.  I know that there are some proposals to expore both and I expect that these will be competitive with traditional sources.

Jennifer,

I was refering to subsidies that promote the use of energy from non alternative sources, for example those that support fossil fuels. These subsidies influence energy markets in different ways and  in the region mostly focus on reducing the cost of energy production. To address these from a policy stand require understanding of both the impacts on the markets and on the environment.

It sounds like there are a lot of exciting, high level energy policy initiatives at work, but how are they actually implemented on the ground?

Thanks for the discussion today, I have been following it with interest. The topic of fossil fuels has been in the back of my mind as the day has gone on... with regard to subsidies, how can we overcome the immense political power of fossil fuel companies - and wean the public off energy use patterns that enrich them?

The first step is political will and citizens play a key role in getting governments to address the issue. Obviously it is easier said than done, since there are mutliple intetests and pockets at stake as David mentions.  Implementation really varies country by country, but usually entails initial dialogue amongst key stakeholders, regulators etc. The negotiation in any process which outcome affects different interests can be hard and slow, but can also show results throughout that are not necessarily long term. For instance in the Dominican Republic the approval of the renewable energy incentives law marked the beggining of small projects and  project by project this has become a blooming sector with significant impact.  

While there are no doubts that there are many efforts to promote progressive thinking on energy in the hemisphere I believe we should also be realistic on the costs of delivering alternative energy, particularly in small countries (small markets and poorer populations). As we mentioned at the beginning of the discussion, the best is to start with efficiencies of all kinds. Further, I would urge the OAS to coordinate their efforts a lot closer with the IDB, World Bank, CEPAL, OLADE, ARPEL and others.

Towards this effort i would like to test an idea with you:  What do you think of having a WIKI page for energy and environment in the Americas where each multilateral institution would control one TAB, and then we could have a portion that is open to public discussion. Each Institutional TAB would be designed the same so information on programs, initiatives, updates, etc.. would be easy to find.

What say you?

Annette,  We have launched this sort of discussion in the Caribbean where all of our institutions are active in overlapping areas.  We hosted a side meeting of donors/multilaterals in front of the ministers during the Caribbean Renewable Energy forum ( www.caribbeanenergyforum.com) whereing each institution filled our a simple one pager on its projects, resources, goals, etc.  This is still evolving but might be useful.  As far as the rest of LAC, I am hoping that we can develop such a platform under the umbrella of the Energy and Climate Partnership of the Americas (this too is still evolving...but thats another long story).

The discussions started off this morning around the pros and cons of nuclear energy.  I'd be very interested to hear everyone's perspectives on the potential and dangers of biofuels/agrofuels in the Americas, and where you see the future of biofuels heading. In terms of the "Es" Mark Lambrides mentioned in his video presentation, biofuels seem huge in terms of the impact on both the economy and the environment.

While biofuels certainly provide energy security, it's widley accepted that they are not an environmentally sustinable solution to traditional energy sources.  I wonder how much of the drive towards biofuel policy is due to economic interests?  What the official position from the various institutions represented today?

I can't tell anyone's official position -- as I don't represent any insitution, and consequently, don't speak for them. That said, I am working on a project with the IDB on biofuels economic and fiscal incentives -- a mapping of what tools are available to governments based on the Brazilian, US, and EU experiences, so I can say that the IDB is much more active in the biofuels promotion file than the World Bank.

Still, to me the most important issue is for each country to examine its own endownments and figure out what would be the most efficient and sustainable energy matrix that can be achieved. Not all biofuels are equal and not all countries can develop a sustainable biofuels sector. On the other hand, to condemn all biofuels as unsustainable does not fit the bill either. For instance, Brazilian sugar cane ethanol has been given the lowest Lifecycle Assessment by the new California Low Carbon Fuel Standards -- which is the most restrictive environmental fuel regulation yet. Nonetheless, if you were talking about Brazilian biodiesel, which right now is mostly derived from soy, the evaluation would be completely different.

Mark; I checked the website you indicated and, here we go again. Wonderful initiative, great meeting, this and that. However, what's next? What are you going to do with the info you collected? Do we have funding to make this effort sustainable? Any methodology for ensuring the information is uniform and updated? Links to previous reports and materials from each institution?

I just spent time at the IDB library and was ready to pull my hair out. If you put a query BIOFUELS in their main library search engine you get 9 items of which two are the recent Blueprint report published days before the last Summit. Although some of the others are interesting, none of the really hefty material done by the IDB officers and contractors is available on line through the library services. In order to find the papers you have to go topic by topic and then to each unit!

This is so innefficient. What i would like to know is what can we do to make it better. Any ideas of concrete steps we could take?

Energy solutions that are available today,emission free and enviromentally sustainable should be take lead. Biofuels, hydrocarbons, both sources of energy that are not sustainable. To much infrastructure investment to accomodate obsolescence within an energy portfolio will only create the same problems of costly transitions that developed infrastructures of the world face. Does it make sense to do this with what is known about alternative renewable clean energy sources?

Dont disagree, but here we are dealing with transportation. When you import all the gasoline and diesel you consume, have a sugar cane industry and could possibly add up to 25% ethanol to your own gasoline without any new infrastructure should you ignore this possibility? Is it a permanent solution? NO. But, perhaps you could work on many fronts simultaneously... if you start with efficiency, right?

I think the energy solutions also have to take into account the human rights context of countries. Extractive industries have long been criticized for their activities in Latin America, and I have heard similar issues with the companies now involved in the production of biofuels: that people are being driven off the land, that crops for biofuel require massive amounts of water, that fewer people are being employed in these sectors than they would have been in traditional agriculture.  Are the energy policies proposed by the inter-American organizations also taking human rights into account in terms of which solutions they support?

To Mark or Claudia,

Has thought ever been given to have a general energy policy for SIDS or CARICOM countries? Claudia mentioned earlier that the type of Alternative enery approached will depend on the geography, endowment etc; I think most of the islands of the lesser antilles present more or less a similar profile within those criteria.

On the biofuel topic, its quite an expensive alternative and it depends on each country, we are familiar of the pros and cons, but the pros seems to weigh more, in the sense that you have less fossil fuel emissions. It has potential in the Americas but combined with another source of course. Its definitely a good initiative that may lower the country´s energy bill. In terms of the dangers we know its not the most sustainable alternative, owing to its production process but I think with continued research it may result to be a very very fruitfull source.

You are right to ask these questions Jennifer. I do believe that ensuring that policies that are put forth do respect the people they are supposed to serve is a fundamental criteria for policy design. But i also have to ask whether traditional agriculture is superior just because it is traditional. In other words, is employing more people in substandard jobs preferable to employing fewer people in rural jobs where the workforce receives education, learns new systems, etc..? It is never black and white.

On the specific policies being proposed by InterAmerican institutions I cant tell you one way or the other. The project I am working on, however, is not proposing a policy. It is designed to map what policies are available should a government want to develop a biofuels sector.

I hadn't thought of that point about traditional agriculture, Annette, so thanks for pointing it out.

Another question, if anyone is still around: It seems as though these new alternative energy initiatives, because they involve such massive amounts of initial capital for research and building the infrastructure, necessarily include private sector involvement. It seems as though public-private partnerships are frequent in the energy sector. Who are the actors investing in these countries? Are they domestic/regional/hemispheric/international?

I find it is important to remember who is supposed to benefit from any study or endeavour such as this. Unification of the approach to the Americas human rights is the fundamental layer for me in any discussion, these protections ensure inclusion in the prosperity of the nation, the right to participate. The energy business in of itself when done right is first beneficial to society as a whole then profitable to society. Keeping this in mind with the available excellent science of today and tomorrows' energy supply mix, investments moving forward should ensure that the priorities for a strong modern society are integrated into the assessment.

Jennifer -- I guess we are the last to give up our computers!!! I think the actors truly depend on what countries we are talking about. Brazil, Mexico, and Colombia attract one type of investor, while Costa Rica, Panama, and Trinidad and Tobago another. And to complicate the picture, we had the collapse of the financial markets and this brutal recession. These circumstances translated into the total drying up of capital for very risky endeavours. This is one space that the Multilateral banks are being asked to fill. However, their own funds have been sequestered to help balance government accounts.

Little by little investment is returning to the region... but I think it will take a while before we have the dynamic market of a few years back.

Hey, hey Troy -- you said it well.

The situation in the Americas is so interesting because of the variety of actors involved; I can see why the different country groupings attract different investors. It will be interesting to see the different directions countries take as a result of the balance between public spending, private investment, and the region's multilateral banks. I guess the forum discussion today didn't get too far into the relationship between the energy sector and the economic slowdown of the past few years, but that is definitely an issue of interest, too, thanks!

Great lead on the discussion, very enjoyable, I have learned a great deal from everyone who participated.   Thanks...

To all that participated, thanks for your time, ideas, and personal energy! It was a pleasure to discuss these issues with you. Stay in touch, check our blog -- cigienergyblueprint.wordpress.com and do share your ideas.

Good night, buenas noches, boa noite, bonne nuit! 

Annette

Thanks to all of our panelists and participants who took part in the e-Conference discussion this week.

Our fourth and final session, Fighting for Human Rights in the Americas , runs November 12 for a one-day dialogue. Watch this space for a full summary of session three and a preview of session four.

We hope to see you there!

The CIGI e-Conference Team