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It is important to hear from indindividuals such as Mr Aldunate who has had direct experience with the military dimensions of the security challenges in Haiti.  As one of the panelists I would be interested in knowing from Mr Aldunate what measures were taken to improve some of the original problems which have been identified with the military role of MINUSTAH in Haiti- for instance allegations of non-impartiality, excessive use of force.

Stephen Randall

Dr Randall

During muy tour in Haiti, I heard many alegations about the role of Minustah but not reefering to non impartiality. More over, we face many problems  with some part of the press because we decided to support elections and the UN Mandate, instead to launch military operations against the gangs.

EA

I Would like to invite all  of you to analize how can the International Comunnity improve the structure in this missions, how can gather efforts from so many NGOs, how coordinate better and of course, how the propper society can do somethig better.

Lesson learned is something needed in Opaz and that concern not only military´s

It would also be ideal to hear from some Haitians who have direct experience with the range of issues that can be encompassed under this broad heading of security. Mark Sedra's report that is posted for today's discussion raises important issues about the relationship between corruption and the levels of confidence that citizens have in their public institutions. From a Haitian perspective which institutions in Haiti are perceived to be the most respected? 

I also hope that we will hear today from members of the NGO community, Haitian and non-Haitian- on their perceptions of the changing security environment.  Consistent with today's themes and questions, what is working and what is not and why?

Dr Randall

Regarding your question about how we deal with allegations, simple, apply the law, ROE and International Humanitarian Law.

Every time I received an alegations, we launch a board of enquire and inform the UN Office of Human Rights an legals affairs.

The only way that I know to gain respect and support from the population  is  follow the UN Mandate and  the fully commitment of the soldiers to the International Comunnity.

We invest a lot of time visiting our troops talking about this, but the most important issue is always be clear that there´s no space to those who do not understand the role of a blue helmet. This is for me, the best way to support your soldiers

General Aldunate

I think the allegations of impartiality were made about the initial actions of Minustah, suggestions that members of the force discriminated against the supporters of Aristide.  Was it not difficult to distinguish in those early days between the "gangs" and those groups that were more politically motivated?  Since the issue of the gangs has been raised, perhaps you and others could comment on how much progress has been made to reduce the impact of organized crime as well as random violence in the most challenging areas of the country?

And of course I agree with you General Aldunate that the only way to deal with allegations is to ensure that appropriate procedures are followed and that all forces are fully informed about the ROE and that any violations will be dealt with expeditiously.  As you also indicated it is important that the population fully understand "the role of the blue helmet" and have confidence in that role. Do you believe that that confidence is now well established with the Haitian population?

Haitian Ambassador Duly Brutus has indicated that there is an effort to institutionalize (professionalize?) the local police and to create a force that can provide a greater degree of martime security. The former would seem to be essential to reduce localized violence and criminal activity and the latter would appear to be essential to address the challenges of traffic in weapons and narcotics. I hope that in the course of the day we will learn more about what progress has been made to achieve the objectives to which the ambassador refers.

Dr Randall

There was a thin line between gangs and political motivations in the early days and specially when I arrive to Minustah where I observe som sort of relations.

Mi concern about violence is if we are reducing the fever or atacking the illness. Today you can see an enviromen more secure but I still think that is volatil and and if the intenational community and the haitian society do not gos faster and deeper, the problems could start again.

Regarding the confidence of the haitian population,  I think the blue helmets have done a good job so far but sometimes the people add to many things inside the rucksack of the soldiers.

That means that economic aid, jobs, development, health, state of law, among others is the key and mi concern is that not necesarily are working with the same speed and efectiviness that others.

This is an excellent panel to discuss about Minustah Structure, Unpol, and others and I will be pleased to share my views

It is a privilege to be able to participate in a forum with such a distinguished panel this morning. I look forward to three days of great discussion.

Mr Jennings- this is a better question for General Aldunate than for me; I have the impression that we would all likely agree that the ideal is that development can proceed without the use of hard force.  At the same time I wonder if the use of hard force when circumstances warrant it is in itself an impediment to development but rather an indication that all of the essential preconditions for development are not yet in place? I would be interested to learn from General Aldunate how the frequency of the use of "hard force" has changed since the 2006 elections for instance- in other words in the past three years.

Bob

One again, we need to analize the role of the blue helmets and o not add more issues to his job.

Certainly blue helmets do more than  only provide security. In some moments, they provide security, in others support to the population, control elections,  opening and cleaning roads, etc but  create the conditions for development is not in mi point of view for the soldiers, is for the Haitian society and the international comunnity.

The issue is that at the same time we where during mi tour in Haiti, dealing against the gangs in Cite Soleil and at the same time acomplish the mandate in order to support the UN Mandate.

The first step is count with legitimate authorities and from that, you can start thinking on development

Dr Randall

During my tour, we face probles of insecurity only in Cite Soleil, the rest of the country always was secure and with no problems, not different than others countries.

In Cite Soleil, Sept 2005-2006, we decided  to keep cool during the hard days, because our commitment with the mandate. We thought that a tactical success wil be a desaster in order to have elections and legitimate authorities.

Since May 2006 we start an more active strategy and today you can move to Cite Soleil with no problem.

Hard use of force, we avoid that but we have 4 blue helmets killed for the gangs in those days.

My concern is if the deeper problems of the hatian society ans his needs aren no attended on time, then, problems can start again

General Aldunate's comments are to my mind the essential ones- one has to look at the MINUSTAH mandate first of all- the balance between providing security on the one hand in a variety of situations, including during the 2006 election, and on the other the responsibility of both Haitian institutions and the international community to expedite development, alleviate poverty, improve educational opportunities and infrastructure. I have the impression from General Aldunate's comments that he is concerned that what he describes as the "deeper problems" of Haitian society are not being addressed quickly or effectively enough and that unless they are the fragile security that exists could once again unravel.

I was pleased to learn from General Aldunate's comments that Cite Soleil's situation is significantly improved, and we do need to recognize the sacrifce that was made by members of MInustah when attempting to confront gangs in that sector of the city in 2005-06.

My sense is that reforms to the judical and penal systems are essential at the same time that economic and social development projects move forward as quickly as possible. If impunity for crimes is at a high rate the confidence of Haitians in the "system" will not improve. I think that the Canadian government's contributions to reforms in those areas - as well as to economic development- are the correct ones on which to concentrate, but in final analysis as General Aldunate is suggesting, the goal is for Haitians themselves - specifically those in positions of responsibility- to advance reforms in those areas.

Good morning,

Can any of the panelists elaborate on penal and justice system reform taking place in Haiti. What can be done to decrease the rate of pretrial detention (roughly 80% of inmates)? Would the model of international prosecutors used in Bosnia and Herzegovina to tackle difficult cases (often involving organized crime) be a good model for tackling crime -- specifically bottlenecks in the justice system -- in Haiti? Or would this simply stunt growth in local institutions?

I am also interested in the idea of separating the Penetentiary Authority from the Haitian National Poilice, and giving the DAP its own budget and autonomy. Would this make any difference in penal reform? Is the problem a lack of funding? An institutional problem? Many thanks for the interesting discussion so far.

Geoffrey raises good concrete questions. My understanding is that Canada, via CIDA, has now run more than 40 training sessions for judges and other court officials as part of general support for the Haitian ministry of justice; there has also been a review of the Haitian criminal code,  One of the main Canadian projects of course is the construction of new facilities for the national police at the same time that there is ongoing work to professionalize the national police, something that has been a serious problem for many years. The question about separating the Penetentiary authority from the national police is an important one for which I do not have a concrete answer.  The goals of penal reform are to improve detention conditions but also to facilitate rehabilitation of offenders. If separating these authorities advanced that goal then it would be a good approach, but one would need to see the evidence that the current administrative structure is at the root of the problem.

On the issue of pretrial detention, the high rate to which you refer is not surprising given the security environment and the risks of reoffending,  My own sense on the issue of the use of international prosecutors is that this would not be as useful or desirable an approach in Haiti as it was in Bosnia and Herzegovina because the circumstances are so distinct, and as you suggest the more the international community controls the dynamic the less the sense of responsibility and autonomy for Haitian officials, which is where leadership increasingly needs to come from.

With respect to some of the most recent comments on Haitian security reform: it seems that all the facets of security reform need to be addressed concurrently for reform to be effective overall. I believe this was discussed at length in a previous dialogue on this website.

At any rate, my question is: given the disparity in capacity between security institutions (MINUSTAH=relatively high, Haiti penal system=relatively low), how can security reforms proceed in concert with one another? It occurs to me that these reforms are only as strong as their weakest link.

Dave's points are ones that General Aldunate has suggested as well- the need to accelerate economic and social reforms if the security environment is going to continue to improve- and that all areas must be addressed, as you suggest, concurrently.  That is the stated goal of the international donors, but we know that it has been a very difficult challenge to attain.  You are certainly correct that there is a significant gap in the capacity of different institutions and actors. So, what do you, Dave, suggest be done to rectify the problems you identify?

In response to Mr. Li, here is the link to some of the relevant material on Haiti from CIGI's previous security-based e-Conference, 'The Furture of Security Sector Reform': http://www.ssrfuture.org/blogs/day3fromco

Of particular interest may be this video interview with two SSR practitioners based in Haiti: http://www.ssrfuture.org/mulitmedia/securityse

Dear folks, regarding legal  issues let me  add some ingredients to this conversation.

Yoy can not separate legal, penal, an police issues in a country in problems.

 Once we  succeed with the elections in Febr, 2006 I start hearing some voices who expresed, is time to go, this is the time to leave the haitians rule his security. Of course  was a tipical oversimplification of a serius problem.

Judicitial sistem, penitenciary system, police,  and of course no corruption and active rol of the political actors are some of the issues linked with security and my concern, if  you follow in a more detail the way choose by the international comunity regarding to PNH, Hatian National Police, at least you will agreed with me that  too many cooks spoil, you know.

The idea for this comments is that is gona take more time to let his own people handle with security issues an.. the soup, and in this case, the neccesary trsnference of the security  from UN to national agents.

d at the same time, invited all of you to see the legal theme in a broad view thas include, PNH

I agree with General Aldunate that especially at this stage there is a greater need to intgegrate rather than to separate institutions involved in the provision of security, which includes the penal system. While I also agree that this is not the time for the inrternational community- ie the military and police commitment- to leave Haiti, most of the work I have seen on transitions of authority suggests that  planning for that transition is an important part of the contribution made by the international community- one strengthens the security institutions to the point where they are self-sustaining. My sense is that we are a long way from that at this stage.

Good afternoon,  I recently worked in Haiti, directly with some of the issues being raised, here are some comments regarding these:

1) Security: Firstly, in terms of security there has been a positive change since April 2008, when kidnappings were reported to be over 100/month to presently approx. 5-10/month.  Not only are these numbers impressive, but you could feel and see a difference in how people felt more comfortable moving around Port au Prince after dark.  This is mainly due to the work of MINUSTAH and the Haitian police cooperating on this specific problem, while the population also put their foot down to come to terms with the problem.  

2) Government Services/Corruption: The real challenges today lie, as mentioned in earlier postings, in the provision of services to the population (in shanty towns as well to the general population). For this to happen you need a responsive and transparent government.   What you have now is generalized corruption and an inflexible administration.  This means that a penal system (DAP) under the Haitian Police, has trouble getting its own budget priorities funded and day-to-day tasks accomplished - because of layers of bureaucracy.  However, to give more freedom to these units of government opens up the administration to potentially more corruption.  Progress in all sectors of government likely face these same challenges of wanting to move forward, but having budgets frozen as well as little administrative independence to spend where needed without seeking approvals from very high up in the government and thus creating a major back-log for action.  MINUSTAH should put a great deal of energy into transparency and corruption issues, perhaps the UNMIL mission (Liberia) has made headway in this area which can be carried over.   

3) Pre-Trial Detention/Judges: There is a major back-log of cases, because there are not enough judges.  Judges need to be kept in country and many more need to be trained. How to do this quick is the big ?

Thank you Caroline not only for your on the ground perspective but also for raising the critical question of individual corruption and bureaucratic inefficiency.  These are of course factors which attention to security alone will not alleviate since the problems have been do deeply ingrained in Haitian practices over the decades whether under the Duvalier dictatorship or in the more "democratic" years that have followed

YOur point about the need for more judges, better trained judges and judges wro remain in country identifies one of the critical factors which explains the lengthy pre-sentencing detention but which also contributes to a culture of impunity..

Caroline, I  have an optimistic idea about Haiti, I agree with you that the situation have improved, by the way the case ok kidnappies arise to 250 in  2005/ 2006 while I was there, my concern is if we, the international comunnity and the hatians, can do it better, and  my answer is yes, not only me can, we must.

Take please note about the issu of the PNH, or  the lack of coordination with Ngos, thats why seminars like this are usefull in terms of provide ideas how we can help this wonderfull people, the haitians and the womens and men who served to achive the peace.

In light of the agreed response for action, to take bold new steps towards lasting security in Haiti will ultimately need a single course of action. How do we take the good will and skill sets of the international community which are quite vast, formulate a course of action and stay that course until there is a self sustaining quality to daily life? Globally there are the successes and there are failures, arguably it is difficult to extract the successes and transplant them to other scenarios but not impossible.

To integrate our ideas into a lasting governance model must be inclusive of course to the very people that have been generationally enslaved to their plight and are fighting back the only way they how. It is however; completely necessary to be inclusive and it is extremely important to start by involving all citizens from the bottom up. To come at the problem from all directions with transparent purpose that is pre calculated with a robust strategy which contains the appropriate milestones. You can have all the blue helmets you want to achieve a perceived security, without the infrastructure of true society building it will never last and it will collapse in on itself.

The people of Haiti need jobs, a good starting point would be sustainable infrastructure. Putting the people to work especially towards agriculture, housing, resource management and security would be the focus. The international community providing temporary oversight, while ensuring a responsible and sustainable exit strategy is very important. The transparent execution of a consolidated best practice strategy that is geared towards a bottom up rebuilding of the country seems appropriate. It is the transparent consolidation of these best practices into a single strategy that has enough international monetary backing to fulfill the objectives that will matter as well.

I think Troy is on the right track when he mentions building up a sustainable economic infrastructure as the backbone of a secure Haiti. To make inroads against illegitimate economic activity, the 'white' economy has to be a viable option. Only then will we see corruption, drug trafficking, gang activity and kidnapping significantly decreasing. Of course, the international community can be a big part of building this infrastructure. As I mentioned above in my previous comment, though, they need to do a better job transferring their institutional capacity (and in some cases, resources) to the Haitians. Just looking at the Security Monitor document listed above, it is obvious that those working in the justice and police sector do not earn enough with their salaries to seriously deter corruption.

Illustrating the inter-connected nature of security issues, we have already began to touch on tomorrow's topic: Economic Development - Institutionalizing Security and Stability. Of particular relevance at the moment may be panelist Carlo Dade's interview, in which he calls for the establishment of export processing zones as one of the strategies for re-building the Haitian economy.

Troy

Let me tell you a history that I personally live many times.

Many people visiting Haiti most of the times, told me that "the solution" to a country like this is  tourism because they have so many beaches as Dominican Republic. Others told me that they have tu used the cheap labor force.

My answer of those days and so far  is the same.

You need first to built with the haitians,  a democratical system  in a secure enviroment that works to answer to the needs of the people.

In Hait you can find great opportunities. The challenge for all of us is do not waste the time waiting for another international intervention and in that regard, I think we need to go faster and  deeper, thats why my concern about better coordination and takes lesson learned.

With respect to the notion of "export processing zones", in other words the creation of low skilled assembly operations comparable to the early stages of the maquiladora sector in Mexico and now common in Central America, while it has some things to recommend it, the approach is very short term and has a tendency, as it has done in Mexico, to perpatuate low skilled, low paid and exploited labour by both foreign and domestic employers.  Arguably Haiti is so desperate that even this would be a better alternative to the current situation of high unemployment and even higher underemployment.  Certainly something has to be done to provide meaningful employment to a higher percentage of Haitians, including those who cross the border into the DR to find work.

I would only add to what I suggested above that I entirely agree that human security cannot be achieved unless the economic situaiton is addressed at the same time, but of course General Aldunatemade that point early in our conversation- the solution has to be a comprehensive one- first national stability but under that umbrella the social and economic reforms and development which will sustain that stability.

Regarding the interconnectedness of stability and economic dev. in Haiti, we should see the situation of Haiti as on the verge of establishing general security and only now are actors able to consider some larger scale eco. dev. strategies for improving the choices the population have to increase their standard of living (including that portion of the population tempted to go the criminal route for lack of better options).  

If the kidnapping situation is truly reduced, the next big security challenge is the looming/hidden drug and arms traffic.  These are bigger fishes to deal with and require more high-level and bold initiatives amongst the diplomatic community involved in Haiti.  And if these problems are left to evolve unchecked, the environment for business development will be very poor and the previous gains lost.

As a corollary, if the government were not held up by such issues and did show a keen interest in economic development for the population they could begin increasing agriculture production and other sectors in their country.  Haiti was better off in the 70s economically than it is now.  However, if they have corruption and transparency issues to deal with (which I agree do pre-date this administration) they will continue to have major difficulties providing incentives for eco. dev. as well as just quality basic services such as health and education, and a functioning justice system.  

An idea for troop activities for economic development could be the example of road building projects of Liberia, but such massive infrastructure projects would require big funding (e.g. World Bank).  Other major infrastructure projects that are needed in Haiti are waste management and reforestation.  

While we still have our panelists with us, I would just like to ask one final question that arose in my mind while reading the resource "The Social Origins of Haitian Despotism." With MINUSTAH slowly helping to secure Haitian society and build its institutions, is the political culture of the country finally moving away from the violence and despotism that has coloured it's over 200 years of independence? If so, then perhaps it is an encouraging note to leave off on...

General,

I think we agree.

The required education and assistance to build a 21st century economy and society goes much deeper than turning the beaches into international investment opportunities. The 21st century of the developed world must prepare Haiti to compete on the international stage as an equal contributor to global social and economic sustainability. Conditionally, there are many nations that are in a similar state and require assistance. To me, if you want security that is plausible and lasting,  you need a 21st century holistic thriving society.

Caroline's comments are particularly relevant to the linkage of security with development. There is a clear linkage between various forms of criminal activity- kidnapping, narcotics and weapons traffic on the one hand- and the lack of viable employment alternatives on the other.  You have also identified, I think, some of the areas which need to be addressed in the economic area- espcially reforestation in the areas close to the DR border, along with waste management and significant infrastructure building.  You are correct that these require major infusions of capital from the international community, but that is precisely what the international donors need to address. Police and military imposed stability is essential, but that has no end game without the economic sustainability.

It is difficult to answer Dave Li's question whether the politicval culture of Haiti has changed- depends I think on your staring point.  IMy personal view is that the departure from the Duvalier years was an important turning point and the series of elections, controversial as some of them may have been and marred by violence as some of them may have been, are still a clear indication of a greater acceptance of politcial pluralism, a willingness to share power. There is still some way to go before those who hold power fully accept that they do so as a trust for the people rather than as a means to personal gain.

Thanks very much for your response, Mr. Randall, and to all the panelists and participants for your insights today. I'll be back for more tomorrow!

Troy

If you see some statistics about Haiti , things are going slowly better, but still you will have good reasons to be concern. In other hand if you see the faces of the people, you will find good reasosn as well to do not frustrate the hopes ofe the haitians.

 The problem is in the mean time, so many people is suffering because we, the international community and the haitian society are not doing all what we have to do and my point is go deeper and faster and simultaneosuly better.

Let me give you some ideas.

Hait face  many elections procces, including a second round. The cost of this democratical and neccesary system is high, mi questions is if is suitable so many  separate elections and if this second round is according to his needs.

Deforestation is a heavy problem and the lack of fuel is a reality. Do they need to go deeper in enviroment control? Do they need an Gendarmerie to control his borders.?  someone mention de issue of drus trafficking, are all of us doing all our best efforts to prevent it.?

I said something about efficiency of PNH, is suitable to have so many countries involved in the formation of the PNH?

I love to said something about the Minustah structure, do we have something to improve? I can give you some examples, the botton line is that therés many issues that  need to  considerer, but all of them have something in common, doesnt work in the long term solutions only reduceding the fever. For sure have to carry out with de society.

Next month probably it is going to be published in Canada a book with my experience and views about  Minustah, I hope to provide more info about it.

I must apologize for signing off now but I teach for the next three hours and am travelling all day tomorrow- I will try to log on mid-day tomorrow.  Thank all of you for your ideas.

Thank you to all panelist and participants for leading off this week's e-Conference discussion with an engaged and productive discussion. Tomorrow's topic - Economic Development: Institutionalizing Security and Stability by Combating Poverty - was touched upon today but is sure to stimulate more dialogue.

Be sure to review the submissions for tomorrow's panelists:

• Hemispheric Cooperation in Haiti and the Chestnut that is Washington, by Andrew Thompson, Senior Fellow, Centre for International Governance Innovation [READ]  [DOWNLOAD]
• Audio Interview with Carlo Dade, Executive Director, Canadian Foundation for the Americas [LISTEN]  [READ TRANSCRIPT]
• Food and Soil: A Neglected piece of Haiti's Development Puzzle, by Yasmine Shamsie, Associate Professor, Wilfrid Laurier University [READ]  [DOWNLOAD]
• David Rojas, Director, POETA (Partnership for Opportunities in Employment through Technology in the Americas), The Trust for the Americas/OAS [READ]  [DOWNLOAD]